Firewalking and Inner Knowing: A Conversation with Theresa Hubbard and Walker Bird

In this episode of The Real Enneagram, we had the pleasure of welcoming special guests Theresa Hubbard and Walker Bird, who shared their unique journey into the realm of self-discovery and inner knowing. We engaged in a deep conversation about the transformative power of firewalking, a practice that Theresa initially explored as a means to connect with her body and emotions.

Theresa recounted her personal journey, highlighting how firewalking helped her break through mental barriers and access deeper emotional truths. She emphasized the importance of listening to our bodies and trusting our inner knowing, which aligns beautifully with the Enneagram's focus on the mind, heart, and body centers. Walker shared his own experiences with firewalking and how it has influenced his perspective as a trial attorney, illustrating the balance between vulnerability and strength in both his professional and personal life.

Throughout the episode, we explored themes of vulnerability, the importance of community, and the ongoing journey of self-discovery. Theresa and Walker discussed their podcast, My Inner Knowing, where they delve into various topics related to personal growth and consciousness. They also shared insights about their retreats, which combine experiential learning with mindfulness practices, fostering a safe space for participants to explore their inner selves.

As we wrapped up the conversation, we reflected on the shared goal of helping others navigate their own journeys toward self-awareness and authenticity. We encourage our listeners to check out Theresa and Walker's work at MyInnerKnowing.com, where they can find resources, podcasts, and information about upcoming retreats.

Thank you for joining us today, and we hope you found inspiration in our discussion about the power of inner knowing and the transformative experiences that can arise from stepping into the unknown.

To learn more about the Institute for Conscious Being, visit: theicb.info

Transcript

Scott:
You are now listening to The Real Enneagram, a podcast by the Institute for Conscious Being. To learn more about the Institute and its offerings, visit theicb.info. That's T-H-E I-C-B dot I-N-F-O. And now, here are your hosts, Dr. Joe Howell and Nanette Mudiam.

Nanette: Well, welcome back to The Real Enneagram, a podcast brought to you by the Institute for Conscious Being. I'm Nanette Mudiam, and I'm here with our co-host today, Dr. Joseph Howell and Scott Smith. Welcome, you guys.

Joe: Hi, glad to be here, Nanette. 

Scott: Good to be here, Nanette.

Nanette: Yeah, it's good. We're excited today because we have some very special guests, Theresa Hubbard and Walker Bird with us here today. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

Theresa: Oh, thank you for having us.

Nanette: Yeah, we're looking forward to having this conversation. And it was not actually me who first met you. It was Dr. Joe. And he, as I understand it, was recently on a podcast that you also host, correct? So, Joe, just tell us a little bit about that experience that you've had with this fine couple.

Joe: Well, it was a wonderful experience. One of our faculty members, Art Wimberly, put us in touch with each other. And I was so glad that he did because I got to be on a podcast that they do called My Inner Knowing. And I also got to be sort of tutored in what my inner knowing means. And it is, for Walker and for Theresa, it's the deepest kind of knowing that we have. It goes past the intellectual knowledge. It goes past the emotions. It goes into the body and uses all three centers, which in Enneagram work, We adhere to the mind center, the heart center, and the body center. And it was amazing to know that you found that truth for your own in other ways, other than just the map of the Enneagram. And so when I heard you speak and learned about what you do, I knew that you had to come and be with Scott and Annette, me and our audience.

Nanette: Yeah, what of course really, really intrigued me as I understand it, Theresa, you got into this work through firewalking. And that is not something that we hear about every day. Not something I've experienced or any of our other hosts, I don't think. So tell me a little bit about your journey and what that had to do with firewalking.

Theresa: Sure. So for me, Nanette, I've been, since my young 20s, I have been trying to better understand myself and had gone on various retreats throughout the years trying to find people and experiences that would help me learn more about myself and what I became aware of was that my mind was often in the way, that I really, that I was so well protected by my mind that it was very difficult for me to access my heart initially. And then that actually opened up relatively quickly, but the body continued to be a challenge for me. And I signed up for a two year hypnotherapy certification. And I really didn't have any idea what I was stepping into. But I wanted to learn if there was a way that I could access my body better. Like when I was in college, I volunteered to be a hypnosis participant. And it didn't work. And the stage performer, you know, came and tapped me on the shoulder and he just said, you know, I need you to leave the stage. You can't be hypnotized. And I was like, well, that's disappointing. And so I believed that to be true. And so taking the certification was, you know, for me wanting to understand why that was true. It wasn't true, ultimately. But I think that was just his short version of me getting me off the stage. So it wasn't distracting from his performance, actually. And so but in that process, the firewall was an opportunity that arose one of the weekends that I was there. And the message was, I listened to and follow my inner knowing. And so it wasn't about walking or not walking. It was, can you be aware of what your body is telling you in regards to whether you walk or not? And so for me, when they took us down to the fire that they had just lit, you know, I stood there, I was aware of, you know, it was a huge fire. Firewalk fires are very, very hot. When they released us to go rest before the walk, I asked the firekeeper if I could stay and tend the fire with him. And so I did, and it was hard work tending the fire. The heat is really, it is shocking, actually, how hot a firework fire is. And then, you know, I was talking to the fire, I was asking the fire to talk to my body, was forming relationship with the fire, like, what's your role? What's my role? What am I trying to learn from doing this? And then ultimately, when we got ready to walk, the instruction was just to walk around the fire and to ask ourselves, what is my body telling me? What is my body telling me? And I wasn't afraid. And it was really the first time that I had this awareness that the anxiety in my abdomen wasn't there. And I was very curious about that, trying to understand why I wasn't afraid to step, why my body wasn't afraid, my mind wasn't afraid, why my body wasn't afraid to step in. And so I was hesitant and then I finally did step in and what I expected to be a joyous experience was actually full of release of grief, sadness, sorrow, disappointment. I mean, I just cried and cried on the other side. And for me, there was just a huge shift really in my being with that experience and then wanted to be able to offer that experience in a very similar way to my first experience. So, when we offer a fire walk, which we do at our retreats, I do the same process. Everybody builds the fire, tends the fire, builds a relationship with the fire. And then whether they walk or not isn't the point. It really is their choice. What does your body tell you? So,

Nanette: Is that helpful? Yeah, that's very helpful. It's how it's, it's very intriguing to me, because honestly, I have very little familiarity with, with fire walking. I mean, it's, it's a very interesting concept that and it makes sense as we speak in Enneagram terms of the centers of intelligence being our hearts, our minds, and our bodies. We are aware that we are also asleep to our bodies very often, that we are unaware of the intelligence that's really there. Our body keeps trying to tell us, right, we have these gut feelings, we have, you know, we have feelings that trigger us, we have illness, we have other certainly symptoms of the body speaking to us, but very often we ignore that. So, can you talk to me about the transformation that occurred on the other side? I mean, maybe to this grief, to what was your next step, to what do you really think firewalking does for someone?

Theresa: Nanette, this is a really big question.  I'll do my best.  It's really I'm aware that it's making me feel very emotional. And then Walker can share his process because no doubt different. We would like to hear that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, what I believe was that it was the first step in learning to trust myself. that I could do something that I, in my mind, was so scary and be okay. That I could trust that my body knew my wholeness better than my mind knew me. And so it's been this continuous journey, like I went on a high adventure with my youngest son to the ocean. And the ocean is something I like to look at and listen to, not something that I particularly like being in or on. I will, but my body likes the earth a lot, like the ground. And that was a really a challenge for me. I mean, the answer when he asked me was instantly yes. But I knew that spending a week on the water and in the water was going to be a challenge for me. And so I, you know, used that as a as another opportunity to continue to teach my whole self that I could trust my body. So being like, we went deep sea fishing, and I had never done that before. And the, you know, the boat is pounding, you know, as you're going out there and all these young men are having a blast. And I'm sitting there for two hours going, is your body afraid? No, then you're not going to die. Is your body afraid? No, then you're not going to die. So that whole week was that whether it was swimming with sharks, or paddle boarding or swimming in the ocean. The entire week was this opportunity to keep teaching myself that my body holds so much awareness of what is possible, what is safe, even if my mind is struggling. I believe that it's helped me learn to continue to step into the dark cave as Joseph Campbell would say, in regards to knowing that what I'm looking for is in what I don't know. And so I will just keep stepping in and trusting that if I'm, that it's not safe, that my body will tell me that it's safe.

Nanette: Well, because you are safe today. And so obviously, we know as a testimony that you come out on the other side of firewalking, right? Every time, every time. So she comes to you at some point, Walker, and tells you, I'm a regular firewalker. How does this play into your life and relationship and connection here to Theresa?

Walker: It's inspiring. She inspires me to keep moving. When we first met, I thought that becoming conscious and wellness was a destination and it's a process that never ends. is what she's taught me. And so the firewalking is just one piece of everything that she does. So she took me to an event where I did my first firewalk, and it was terrifying. But I made it through. And She was standing on the other side, which was helpful. You know, just eyes straight across instead of down at the coals.

SPEAKER_02: Okay.

Walker: And that helped me get through but I have had my own experience with sensing my inner knowing and I'm still working on that on parts of my body. For example, my right side, I just there's not a whole lot of I can't get in touch with that yet. just in that process with her, we went down to Texas and did a week long training for fire to become firewall instructors to be able to host events.

SPEAKER_02: And we've walked a lot. So you guys want to interject?

Scott: Oh, Theresa, you spoke earlier of making a relationship with, coming into relationship with the fire, what does that feel like sensationally and experientially?

SPEAKER_02: What do you feel in your body and your being as that's happening? Yeah, again, such a good question, Scott. For me, there is a settledness.

Theresa: Resolute is what comes to mind. very grounded. And I know that that's not necessarily what people think of in regards to fire energy, but that's my relationship, you know, with the fire. My body feels very peaceful, very still, very focused. Yeah, that I can do whatever it is that I choose to do.

SPEAKER_02: Walker, same question. How does that feel for you?

Walker: It's an exercise for me in ego relinquishment and in faith. But the energy, there's at least a couple of ways to reach the energy of the fire because I think it has different personalities. One is that some people go towards the higher energy. That's not what it is for me. For me, it is not overcoming the fire. It is establishing relationship, which is more of a meditative, calm state. I don't have to be more powerful than, but I can have faith that I can walk across the coals and not be severely burned. And when I've the one time I have been burned. When we host part of being a facilitator, as you would know is. ego can come into play just because you want to pull it off well. You want things to go smoothly, and you want people to have a great experience. And my job or one of my jobs when we're facilitating fire walk is I tend, I'm directing tending the fire and deciding when the coals are ready, etc. And Theresa usually walks first. She invited me to walk first and I was in the midst of that. management and safety protector role. And I did not take time to get myself grounded to settle down into my body. And to, I guess, respect the process.

SPEAKER_02: And it was a very different experience. I was burned several times.

Walker: So I learned after that that I need to, I've got to relax about the control piece, let the ego go, and get into that faith perspective to be able to walk across without severe burns.

SPEAKER_02: Marker, how important do you think it is to suspend, do away with, or be able to acknowledge our ego?

Walker: The ego serves its purpose, in my opinion. It helps motivate us, gets us into action. But I think ultimately, if that is what is leading, whether it's firewalking or trial work, for me, it's not a success. And it's all about me in my head.

Nanette: So as I understand it, Walker, you are a trial attorney. And and so you you navigate this spiritual life and also, you know, a fairly demanding, normally, if I may say without being offensive, an ego driven profession. All right. I mean, most attorneys I know don't scream humility for the most part. No offense to the attorneys out there, but it would be tough to do that kind of job in Seoul. How do you do that?

Walker: I think as I progress into spirituality that it makes me better. actually, because there's that perception that is earned of attorneys with the ego and, you know, the powerful, the screaming or the all of the speechifying, etc. And when you are able to step back from that role, You are so much more powerful and effective. The ego drives me to have the courage to be there in the first place. And then if I can set that off to the side and speak as a human being without being condescending, recognizing the frailties in my case, being honest is so much more powerful. than trying to ramrod anything through. Same as the firewalk. And so it's a really great teacher. And so I'm learning in my interactions with other attorneys as well, instead of beating my chest, that I get so much further. If I say, how's your family? How are your kids? And I don't get myself lost in the winning of it all. It's a process. That's what I'm trying to focus on process too. There's a lot of learning going on for me at 56.

Nanette: Well, it's true of all of us. That's why we're here today. We're all on this journey. So can you guys together maybe kind of summarize, I know my inner knowing is more than just firewalking. What is my inner knowing?

Theresa: Yeah. So a journey to self. in really short terms. But we have a podcast where we interview guests like we talked about Dr. Joe Howell's episode. And really for us, it is a gathering of stories of our guests of what their process to knowing has been. And then Walker and I have conversations, just the two of us, on topics that maybe people struggle to have conversation about. Maybe it's about shame, maybe it's about domestic violence, maybe it's about the fear that we have in the night. It can be a lot of things and we just share our personal journeys and thoughts and then the retreats are very experiential. There's some mindfulness meditative parts to it where we're doing a lot of self-inquiry. And then we like to have fun too. So, there's always some fun that we're having. And so, maybe some psychodrama, art, music. So, we always have some creative parts to it as well. And, you know, really for us, you know, what we do in planning each retreat as we sit down. And we just think about ourselves and the people around us and, you know, what might people need right now? And so every retreat is actually different. It's not the same. And so they grow as we grow. And we're always introducing, you know, new things, forming community. Often, you know, people can often feel so isolated and alone. And so when people aren't sure, I'm like, I've been doing this for 12 years and I promise you will experience something that maybe you don't even know exists in regards to relationship and conversation and safety in a group. I feel very fortunate that I've not ever had an issue at a retreat that I facilitated. And since walkers joined me, same people really, seem to hold such lovely space for each other. And I believe we need safety in order to see ourself as clear as we can. And so, we put a lot of effort into that nurturing as well. Walker and I make all the meals. And so, we're working in the kitchen too and really taking care of the people that come as well. That's important to us, too.

SPEAKER_02: What about you, Bing? Well, I think the servant leadership piece is important.

Walker: It does make people feel held. We do a lot of meditations now, because we're both certified meditation teachers. That helps open the heart, gets people into that space, and I think that facilitates a lot of the other work that we do. And it's work. People that have been to a lot of retreats are like, wow. that it wasn't just fluff and it wasn't just, you know, massages or complete relaxation, etc. We have to give plenty of time for the relaxation in between just because people need time to process after we do an exercise. The other thing that I think really works well for us is just our relationship is something that people, it's a good, I believe, model for people. The way we treat each other, the way we regard each other, people comment on it a lot. And so that I believe that the warmth of the relationship, the trust that we've got, touches the group through the process, which is, it's a great, powerful experience. And I'm happy to be a part of it, actually.

Nanette: It sounds like a beautiful experience. And honestly, for much of our listening audience, it will be very familiar because the Institute for Conscious Being also runs retreats. And so many of the elements that you were speaking of, we also offer the same. And it made me think, Scott, what you're saying,

Scott: fingers. Oh, there's one moon, but there are many fingers pointing at the moon. Trouble is we focus on the finger and we argue over who has the one true finger when we could just celebrate there's such a diversity of fingers.

Nanette: So what we recognize is we're all beholding the moon in a different way, maybe, but it but it's bringing us, you know, into higher levels of consciousness into greater levels of of knowing ourselves and discovering this beautiful soul that is in most of us. Our theme for this year is honestly based on Joe's newest book called Know Your Soul. And that's our theme for this year is Know Your Soul. And I was thinking that though you call it My Inner Knowing and we call it Know Your Soul, that it's very likely the same destination. Yeah. which is the journey of self-discovery. And we mark that journey based on the Enneagram. We call the Enneagram a map. And over the years, we have said that many people who are doing consciousness work are on the road, they just don't mark it in the same way that we do. So, it's a beautiful thing to see that the universe is at work in different methods to bring wholeness to people. So, we're excited. Joe, would you like to say something?

Joe: Well, it's just that I appreciate the authenticity that we receive from you. One of the ways that comes across is that when you are asked a question, and I noticed it was true of both of you, that you don't bounce back with a rapid answer. There's a conscious dropping into your soul. And I watched you both consult your soul however you do it, your body, your mind, your heart, your inner knowing, your inner knowing before you answered these questions. It could have been very podcast savvy to just answer it quickly. Oh, here, I'm a guest. I know these answers. But you thought better of the moment to give it time to let it resonate with you. to have your words bubble up from something greater than you are. And experiencing that has been a testimony to me today of the power of the soul within us, and that you two tap it so beautifully.

SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Jim.

Nanette: There is a beautiful idea that you referred to earlier when we were talking, Walker, prior to this recording, about the power of vulnerability. And you were speaking in the courtroom as I understood it. It is, I think that is what Joe is really referring to is the vulnerability and transparency that both of you seem to emit. And it's very beautiful. And there is a certain power that comes in vulnerability, although that's not the aim, it is the outcome. And so can you talk about that a little bit, Walker?

Walker: Oh, I think It is interesting. We have this perception of power as, I don't know, I shouldn't say we. I have in the past had this perception of power as a masculine, you know, it's big and it's forceful, etc. And I think that's what people expect of lawyers. And I think it's disarming when you don't make it about you. Recognizing that what I do in the courtroom is about my client and my client's story is the best way for me to present and not about. Which lawyer had the snarkiest side comment, etc. And so it's learning that process and recognizing that you can be vulnerable and some people may initially see that as weakness. But it has this way of seeping into the cracks is what I would say. And it gets through because it gets through those defenses and those preconceptions and into the other person's soul or their heart.

SPEAKER_02: You get past the defenses when you're vulnerable.

Scott: That's real strength, I think. Yeah. I was reflecting the other day on the phrase gentle strength, like our ego based culture sees things in binary. So either you're strong or you're gentle, but they balance each other without gentleness. Strength is belligerence and without strength, gentleness is weakness.

SPEAKER_02: And I'm, I'm hearing that you embody that gentle strength, Walker. That's what I try to do. It's my aspiration.

Joe: And if you don't believe it, it'll take you to court.

Walker: That's the balance. Because it's interesting that you say that, Joe. I get underestimated all the time. And you can be kind and never give up. It's like you go through this and word gets out without having to go the other direction. It's a nice learning and growth for me in that process. And it's taken a long time because it's a painful career. to my nature is not that. I have, I became that through trauma as a child, that sort of thing, able to go there. And then I got lost in that wilderness for a long time.

SPEAKER_02: And it's really nice to be coming out. I can feel that. That's true. Yeah.

Nanette: Well, I'm sure it helps that you're also in a relationship with a mental health therapist, just in case you might need. But so how, so how collectively, I mean, as an attorney and a mental health therapist, are you advancing your work in my inner knowing?

Theresa: Could you ask me the question again? I just want to be clear. I understand what you're asking.

Nanette: Yeah, I'm just saying, is my inner knowing a full time job for both of you? Oh, no. Right. Okay. So in in your careers, you are an attorney, Walker, Theresa, you're a mental health therapist, as I understand it. How are you using your, your careers, your platforms, whatever you're doing to advance this, this passion of yours called my inner knowing?

Theresa: Sure. So, we'd love to be doing it full time, Nanette. The balance between what we do and what pays the bills and where we're going. One of the things that we want to start doing in 2025 is doing online classes. And one of the things that we did recently was to analyze our relationship and to get more clear about what it is in our relationship that is healthy. And we are diving deep into those areas that we've identified to see because we understand that we model it because that's the feedback we get from a lot of people. But how can we help people explore those areas themselves and then actually put it into practice? So that's something that we're working on, which we know we'll grow from, you know, too, because it isn't something that we think about often. It's just something that we've developed and cultivated, I would say, but not as much intention. as we are now. And then we also get a lot of feedback from younger people that are listening, that we are having conversations they wish they'd heard their parents have. And so we're trying to figure out how to create a course around the conversations we needed to hear. And it's really not about giving answers. It's really about inspiring curiosity within ourselves. How might, you know, again, what are you aware of within yourself? I mean, we're all so complex. I mean, it's, you know, we don't have, we don't have answers. We're really just trying to help people explore different areas of their life so that they can find the things that really feel very integrous to themselves. Yeah, that's what comes to mind for me. What about you, Bing?

Walker: There's no pretense of perfection in our relationship either. That's always a wise place to start. It is. Well, that's true. And it's been important to me that when we do those things that we're not having some, you know, condescending air. I use that in terms of lawyers too, right? Because in our podcast, we share the moments where we have failed in relationship with each other as well and work through that process. And that's a vulnerable space to be to be speaking for whoever wants to listen. times that we lost our cool, times that we weren't kind or, you know, I teased and her feelings, you know, that sometimes the sharp wit comes out. And we don't treat our partners or children or our parents with respect or with love. And you can have respect and still have boundaries, but there's a difference between the two. And so that's what I want that authenticity to play through as we do this. And in recognizing those things in our podcast and what will be our courses, I think it will be helpful. Because people can say, oh, I can do that too, because I can be imperfect and still be improving.

Nanette: So as we close out this beautiful conversation with you guys today, can you tell our audience how they might find more about you?

Theresa: Yeah, thanks, Annette. So our website is MyInnerKnowing.com and it has all of the links to our podcasts and blog and that's where the next retreat registration will be. And then we're on, you know, Facebook and Instagram as well.

Nanette: Okay, wonderful. Well, we're so grateful for your vulnerability here today. It's been a it's been a very open conversation where you guys have spoken so forthrightly. And so I just appreciate that so much. And I, I know Scott and Joe do to our listening audience. Thank you so much.

Scott: Thanks for joining us. 

Walker: Thank you all very much.

Scott: Thank you for listening to The Real Enneagram, a podcast by the Institute for Conscious Being. To learn more about the Institute and its offerings, visit theicb.info. That's T-H-E I-C-B dot I-N-F-O. The music for today's podcast was composed and performed by ICB faculty member Drexel Rayford.

Nanette: Thanks for listening today. We hope you liked what you heard. If you did, please subscribe, leave a review, and share this with your friends and family.